⤓ Download a transcript of the Episode as a PDF // → Subscribe

Teaching Uncomfortable History: The Doctrine of Discovery an interview with Dr. Holly Rine #

In this final episode of Season 5 of the Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery podcast, Professors Philip Arnold and Sandy Bigtree sit down with Dr. Holly Rine of Le Moyne College for a powerful conversation about teaching the Doctrine of Discovery in Jesuit institutions. The Doctrine of Discovery—a legal and theological framework that justified the seizure of Indigenous lands—remains a critical, if uncomfortable, topic in contemporary education.

Dr. Rine shares her experiences teaching at a Jesuit college with deep historical ties to colonial missions and the Haudenosaunee. As the first person hired to teach Native American history at Le Moyne, she reflects on how few students initially knew about the Doctrine and how deeply they are impacted once they learn it. Many express shock and curiosity, leading to creative public history projects like student-made podcasts and QR code campus tours exploring colonial legacies.

The episode underscores the importance of confronting colonial narratives embedded in sources like the Jesuit Relations. Rine and her students examine these documents with a critical eye, asking why they were written, who they were for, and how they shaped distorted perceptions of Indigenous peoples. The conversation brings into focus the contrast between patriarchal European worldviews and the matrilineal, consensus-based governance of the Haudenosaunee.

The hosts and guest also explore Onondaga Lake as both sacred and contested space. Rine’s work emphasizes the environmental degradation of this site and challenges listeners to think about how memory, land, and law intersect. The Wampum Belts, including the Two Row and the Hiawatha Belt, are presented as living records that counter Western historical frameworks, reminding us of enduring Indigenous law and relational governance.

Finally, the discussion turns to justice and reconciliation. Participants question whether true reconciliation is even possible without recognition of historical and ongoing harm. They highlight how Indigenous frameworks offer different ways of understanding history—not as distant and fixed, but as present and relational.

This episode is a clear call to educators, students, and listeners: we must teach the Doctrine of Discovery not as distant history but as part of our shared and ongoing present. And we must do so in collaboration with the Indigenous communities whose voices and laws continue to be sidelined.

Show Notes: #

Topics Covered: #

• What the Doctrine of Discovery is and why it still matters
• The challenge of teaching at a Jesuit institution with colonial ties
• How students respond to learning this history and participate in public history projects
• Analyzing biased colonial documents like the Jesuit Relations
• Sacred space and contested memory at Onondaga Lake
• The living significance of Wampum Belts and Indigenous worldviews
• Critical thinking as a necessary tool for historical education
• The limits of reconciliation without justice or restored relationships

Additional Resources: #

• Rine, H. A. (2023). Onondaga Lake as Sacred Space and Contested Space. Review of International American Studies, 16(1), 187--221. https://doi.org/10.31261/rias.13185
• The Skä·noñh—Great Law of Peace Center
• The Indigenous Values Initiative

Related Episodes #

• S04E02: Exploring the American Religious Tapestry: From Civil Religion to Secularism and the Impact of the January 6th Insurrection
• S03E01: The Hidden Roots of White Supremacy and the Doctrine of Christian Discovery an interview with Robert P. Jones
• S02E05: Dissecting the Doctrine of Discovery: Indigenous Rights, White Supremacy, and the United Nations with Betty Lyons

Credits #

• Music: Onondaga Social Dance songs performed by Orris Edwards and Regis Cook
• Producers: Jordan Loewen-Colón and Adam DJ Brett
• Show notes: Adam DJ Brett

Citation #

Philip P. Arnold and Sandra Bigtree, "S05E08: Teaching Uncomfortable History: The Doctrine of Discovery an interview with Holly Rine," Mapping the Doctrine of Discovery (Podcast), May 19, 2025. https://podcast.doctrineofdiscovery.org/season5/episode-08/.